A Review of ‘The Doctrine of Hell’ by Toni Ruth Smith

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER UNKNOWN]:
In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
[00:02:36] Amen.
[00:03:21] In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
[00:03:49] Amen.
[00:03:51] In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
[00:04:11] Amen.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_03]:
Let us pray.
[00:05:33] Come and see, come and see, I am the way and the truth, said he.
[00:05:34] Follow me, follow me, come as a child of God.
[00:05:36] Kyrie, Kyrie, Kyrie eleison Christe, Christe, Christe

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Good morning, church.
[00:06:45] It's good to be with you this morning.
[00:06:47] Welcome to worship with us at Williamson Chapel, United Methodist Church.
[00:06:50] We're glad that you are all here.
[00:06:53] My name is Pastor Tony Root.
[00:06:55] My husband Wes and I are the senior co-pastors here at Williamson Chapel and it's our privilege.
[00:06:59] Welcome you all into worship this morning.
[00:07:02] We are especially glad that you're here.
[00:07:04] If you're visiting with us, if you are, we've been waiting for you, so we're glad to see you.
[00:07:10] We want to give you a chance to learn a little bit about how you can get connected into life here with us at Williamson Chapel.
[00:07:17] So you're going to want to meet Pastor Monica.
[00:07:19] Monica Humple is our Minister of Engagement.
[00:07:22] So on the way out of worship, on the left, Monica will be right there, and she would love to greet you and share a little bit about how you can get connected with us.
[00:07:29] If you're worshiping with us online, welcome.
[00:07:32] We're glad that you're here this morning.
[00:07:34] And we want to make that same connection with you.
[00:07:36] So if you go to our website, click I'm New, you can get connected here and have a little conversation with Pastor Monica.
[00:07:43] She'd love to do that.
[00:07:45] So we are on the second week now of a series that we're going to be doing all fall actually called Curious Questions.
[00:07:52] This summer we invited you all to share your questions about the Bible and faith and life and what does it mean to be a Christian and we're answering your questions and boy y'all had some real doozies.
[00:08:02] So we really are...
[00:08:03] Kicking it off right here from the very beginning and talking about who's going to be saved.
[00:08:07] So we started that conversation last week and we're going to talk a little bit about it more.
[00:08:12] So if you've ever had questions like that, you're in the right spot this morning.
[00:08:16] We're glad that you're here.
[00:08:17] It's okay to ask our questions and to wrestle.
[00:08:20] We find that we learn more about God.
[00:08:22] We learn more about ourselves.
[00:08:23] We learn more about what it means to be faithful in the world.
[00:08:25] And so we hope that you will wrestle with us as we ask lots of curious questions.
[00:08:31] So I'm going to invite you to just take a deep breath in as we gather for worship.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_01]:
And let's worship God together.
[00:08:41] Will you stand to join with me in our call to worship?
[00:08:46] I praise you, O God, for you have lifted me up and have given my enemies no cause to rejoice.
[00:08:53] Hearing my cries for help, you healed me.
[00:08:57] Bringing me from the very depths of hell, you restored my life.
[00:09:01] Let all faithful people give thanks and praise God's holy name.
[00:09:07] For your anger, O God, lasts but a moment, while your graciousness lasts a lifetime.
[00:09:13] Weeping lingers for a night, but joy comes with the morning.
[00:09:18] You have transformed my life from mourning to joy, making my spirit dance and my heart sing.
[00:09:25] May our praise never be silenced as we give you thanks, and praise God forever and ever.
[00:09:31] Let us pray.
[00:09:33] God of healing and wholeness, we come with thanksgiving in our hearts for all the evidence of your goodness and mercy, found not only in stories of old, but in lives today.
[00:09:43] Lives bruised with tragedy find consolation when touched by your gracious Spirit.
[00:09:50] Lives scarred with suffering and rejection have hope renewed through the power of the living Christ.
[00:09:56] We praise and adore you for hearts and lives transformed by your grace and mercy, and we pray that our lives will reflect your great acts of kindness.
[00:10:06] Arouse in us, we pray, a love like yours, so that we reach out to this wounded and troubled world with the compassion of Christ, proclaiming the gospel with integrity to friends and strangers alike.
[00:10:21] This we pray in Jesus' name, and all God's children said, Amen.
[00:10:26] Let us sing together, Rejoice the Lord is King, 715 in your hymnal.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER UNKNOWN]:
Rejoice!
[00:11:02] The Lord is here!
[00:11:03] The Lord and King adore!
[00:11:03] Angels with glances sing their triumphs,
[00:11:07] Jesus, the Savior reigns, the God of truth and truth.
[00:11:34] Church of saints, be to this seat of all.

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_03]:
Lift up your hearts, lift up your voice, Rejoice again, God's name rejoice.
[00:11:59] His kingdom dwell on faith,
[00:12:05] The kings of earth and the waters of Jesus live!
[00:12:28] Lift up your voice!
[00:12:28] Lift up your voice!

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER UNKNOWN]:
Rejoice like him, and say, Rejoice!

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_03]:
Rejoice in glorious love!
[00:12:58] Praise as the church above!
[00:12:58] And take this service unto very high!
[00:13:02] You may be seated.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
Good morning church.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_01]:
Morning.

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
Our reading from Scripture this morning is found in the Gospel of Mark, chapter 9, verses 42 through 48.
[00:13:36] Hear now the word of the Lord.
[00:13:40] If any one of you calls one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for you if a great millstone were hung around your neck and you were thrown into the sea.
[00:13:54] If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off.
[00:13:57] It is better for you to enter life maimed and to have two hands and to go to hell to the unquenchable fire.
[00:14:03] And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off.
[00:14:07] It is better for you to enter life lame than to have two feet and to be thrown into hell.
[00:14:13] And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out.
[00:14:16] It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and to be thrown into hell where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched.
[00:14:25] This is the word of God for all people.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Thanks be to God.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
That's heavy.
[00:14:32] Let's do some unpacking.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Okay, so I want to catch you up to where we left off last week when we talked about the first part of this question, who will be saved?
[00:14:42] And we talked about, y'all had lots of questions about how we're saved, and do people have to confess the name of Jesus, and what happens, and what happens about our friends and our loved ones that don't know Jesus, and there was a lot of worry about all that.
[00:14:57] And so we talked about how Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life.
[00:15:01] And what that means is not that Jesus doesn't say, I'm the way you have to believe.
[00:15:08] No one comes but by me.
[00:15:10] And we talked about how part of what that means is that Jesus' way is the way that he was faithful and obedient and brought about our salvation.
[00:15:20] So we talked about how we're saved and who's saved a little bit.
[00:15:24] And then we invited you to focus less on other people and more a little bit on yourself there.
[00:15:29] To be less worried about whether or not somebody else is going to go to heaven and more concerned about your own witness.
[00:15:34] About how you're living in ways that might invite someone to come to know the goodness of God in Jesus Christ.
[00:15:40] And we invited you to think about how you're praying for other people.
[00:15:43] And at the end of that sermon I commented that I think that
[00:15:46] I think that hell is a really lousy evangelistic tool.
[00:15:51] And Wes told me I needed to put a pin in it.
[00:15:54] So I'm taking the pin out of it and saying, oh wonderful Bible scholar, why not tell us a little bit about hell in the Bible, oh great one.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
So you're pulling the pin, it sounds like a grenade.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
You owe a dollar to Kerry.
[00:16:12] Where's Kerry?
[00:16:12] He owes you a dollar.
[00:16:13] I don't owe you a dollar.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
Okay.
[00:16:15] Put it on my tab.
[00:16:16] So you're telling this talk of pulling a pin.
[00:16:18] It sounds like you're handing me a grenade.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Maybe.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
And we need to talk about the rules.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
The rules.
[00:16:25] Okay.
[00:16:26] Ground rules.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
Ground rules.
[00:16:28] So we talked about this last week that as we think about these questions, we're going to engage with humility, remembering that we don't know everything.
[00:16:36] We're going to stay grounded in Scripture.
[00:16:39] As Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, we build our house on the rock.
[00:16:45] We get rooted in God's Word.
[00:16:47] And then we wrestle.
[00:16:49] Well, I said it last week.
[00:16:51] Rassle.
[00:16:52] It feels a little bit fake for me to say wrestle.
[00:16:56] I'm from Rowan County.
[00:16:57] We say rassle.
[00:16:59] We're going to rassle.
[00:17:01] Trusting God in the midst of our wrestling.
[00:17:05] Trusting God as we think about some of these things, including today as we think about hell.
[00:17:12] And every week we'll remind you of those rules as helpful guides as we grapple with these things.
[00:17:19] Okay, so the amount of attention... You can move on to the next slide.
[00:17:22] The amount of attention... Not that one.
[00:17:24] Not that one.
[00:17:24] Well, just go back to the title slide if you can.
[00:17:28] There you go.
[00:17:28] There we go.
[00:17:29] The amount of attention I said last week this we're still question one this is one beat the amount of attention a lot of people give to hell and kind of in my opinion the overly confident claims that many Christians make about hell and who is or will not be there this kind of certainty some Christians have about well they're definitely going to hell they're you know I'm definitely not whatever
[00:17:54] It's not proportional really to how little attention hell actually receives in Scripture.
[00:18:03] I'm going to look at some numbers here.
[00:18:07] We're going to look at the New Testament because the word hell does not show up at all in the Old Testament.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Not at all.

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
Not at all.
[00:18:14] The word that's used there is Sheol.
[00:18:16] You see that a lot, especially in the Psalms.
[00:18:19] Sheol, which refers basically to the underworld, almost like Hades in Greek mythology.
[00:18:25] Sheol is kind of like thought to be like the land of shadows kind of thing.
[00:18:30] It's not until we get to the New Testament to where there's an increased focus on the afterlife and where we see the word hell.
[00:18:39] But first, we see the word heaven.
[00:18:42] In the New Testament 276 times.
[00:18:46] Now a lot of those uses are in Matthew's Gospel.
[00:18:48] Matthew says Kingdom of Heaven instead of Kingdom of God.
[00:18:53] Matthew was writing primarily to a Jewish Christian audience and their practice was not to even write down or to say out loud the name of God so Matthew wrote Kingdom of Heaven.
[00:19:06] More on that in a minute.
[00:19:08] 276 uses of heaven.
[00:19:12] The word save or salvation, that word, 132 times.
[00:19:17] So salvation or saved, 132 times.
[00:19:21] By comparison, the word hell only appears 13 times in the New Testament.
[00:19:27] 276 for heaven, 13 for the word hell, and three of those are repeats.
[00:19:34] Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew says the same thing basically that we read from Mark a few minutes ago.
[00:19:41] So 13 times.
[00:19:43] The word condemn or condemnation related to God's judgment or the end of life or end of the world, 10 times.
[00:19:50] The word punishment in the New Testament appears eight times, and the word wrath appears 29 times.
[00:19:56] So taken together, all those words that we might think of with a negative connotation, add all those up, that's 100, still not as many times as salvation or heaven.
[00:20:06] And so it feels weighted in one direction, doesn't it?
[00:20:10] That's an indication of where our focus should be if the New Testament writers were that much more concerned with heaven or with salvation.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Well, I grew up in the South, so that is definitely not matching how many times I heard people talking about fire and brimstone.
[00:20:26] Nor about how many times I heard the phrase, turn or burn.
[00:20:29] And you'd think, from what we hear, that there'd be a lot more.
[00:20:32] So that's just really interesting to me, so I feel like there's probably a reason why.
[00:20:36] So can you help us understand that?

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
Like I said, the New Testament is much more focused on the hope of heaven than the threat of hell.
[00:20:45] Much more focused on salvation than condemnation.
[00:20:48] Even more importantly, I mentioned that about the Gospel of Matthew, about the kingdom of heaven.
[00:20:54] The New Testament is way more interested in how we live in the reality of God's kingdom, in the kingdom of heaven, in the here and now.
[00:21:03] So it's not like the kingdom of heaven when Jesus was talking about the kingdom of heaven or kingdom of God.
[00:21:08] He's not talking about some far-off afterlife.
[00:21:11] Jesus is talking about how to make God's way, living in the way God wants us to live now, making that a reality in the here and now in our everyday lives.
[00:21:23] Now to be clear, hell and judgment and wrath and all that, they are mentioned in the Bible, so we cannot, nor should we, ignore them.
[00:21:33] However, we should not be obsessed with them, nor should we be overcome by fear.
[00:21:39] That's not going to help us make God's kingdom a reality in our lives today.

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
So all I'm hearing here is that Belinda Carlisle was right and heaven is a place on earth.

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
Thanks for putting that song in my head.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
You're welcome.
[00:21:53] You can sing it all afternoon.
[00:21:55] If you don't know it, just go look it up.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
Oh yeah, now I am going to sing it all afternoon and you will hate it.

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
You know, Belinda Carlisle, she was in the Go-Go's.
[00:22:05] Anyway, go ahead.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
I digress.

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
So, I'm sorry.
[00:22:12] I'm sorry to digress you.
[00:22:14] I didn't mean to do that.
[00:22:15] So, okay, let me get you back on track.

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
Okay.

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
So, the word hell, I feel like you're going to tell us.
[00:22:20] I don't know about you all.
[00:22:21] Do you all feel like he's going to tell us what the word hell is in the Greek or the Hebrew?
[00:22:26] I feel it in my bones.
[00:22:28] So, why don't you just go ahead and show us what you know there, Wesley.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
Well, I don't know this off the top of my head.
[00:22:33] I did a lot of research this week.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
That's fair.
[00:22:35] That's fair.

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
The word that Jesus uses for hell is Gehenna.
[00:22:43] And it comes from Hebrew, the Hebrew Gehinom, which means the Valley of Hinnom.
[00:22:52] And you see the next slide there, the Valley of Hinnom to the southwest of the old city of Jerusalem.
[00:22:58] You got that slide, that picture?
[00:23:00] There we go.
[00:23:01] That does not look very hellish, does it?

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
I kind of want to take a picnic.

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
Literally, in Google Images, the next picture was people taking a picnic in the Valley of Hinnom.
[00:23:12] However, that picturesque valley there, it was a location for the ancient Canaanite worship of the god Molech.
[00:23:21] And actually, in worship of the god Molech, there were child sacrifices using fire.
[00:23:29] You read about that in 2 Kings and 2 Chronicles and in Jeremiah.
[00:23:34] And after the ancient Israelites took possession of that territory where these Canaanites had worshipped Molech, the Israelites turned that valley basically into a garbage dump, which seems awfully fitting.
[00:23:52] It's traditionally thought that the waste that was thrown into the valley of Hinnom or Gehenna was burned.
[00:24:00] More to the point, it was a trash pit that continually burned.
[00:24:05] Maybe update it for our time.
[00:24:06] Kind of like a dumpster fire that burned constantly.
[00:24:11] And so, you can look at that picture and see the trash there.
[00:24:15] You can almost smell that picture.
[00:24:17] When I was a kid, where I grew up, we did not have curbside trash service.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Yeah, we didn't either.
[00:24:23] Anybody else?
[00:24:24] Take your trash to the dump?

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
You had to take your trash to the dump.
[00:24:26] So in the summer, every few weeks, I'd have to put all the trash in the back of my dad's truck and take it to the dump.
[00:24:33] and if I had been more on top of things and not been a slacker I would have done that in a more timely fashion but I waited and it was hot and you can imagine in the middle of summer how that smelled and then all the various nasty critters, worms and maggots and all that stuff.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
You can keep going.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
I'm trying to get to the impact of the image here.
[00:24:56] So you can feel that impact but then
[00:25:00] Gehenna is constantly burning.
[00:25:03] It would have been worse at night.
[00:25:07] I mean, imagine that.
[00:25:09] There's no ambient light.
[00:25:10] There are no street lights, no other sources of light.
[00:25:12] Imagine the smell that would hit you, the heat, and then the visual.
[00:25:17] It would have been terrifying, and we can kind of get a sense of the impact that image would have had for the people that Jesus was talking to when he said, Gehenna.
[00:25:29] It's not meant to describe some conscious eternal state of perpetual torture.
[00:25:35] We'll talk about that in a minute too.
[00:25:37] But to indicate the destruction of those who willfully reject God's love or live in ways that are greedy, selfish, hateful, and lacking in hospitality for strangers.
[00:25:48] If you want to learn more about that, go read what Jesus says about sheep and the goats in Matthew 25.
[00:25:54] and that sense of people who are choosing, willfully choosing a way that is opposed to what God wants for the world, for life.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
So that's scary.
[00:26:04] It makes me think of like
[00:26:05] Like when you would do like a brush fire or whatever in the mountains and you have to keep adding stuff to it like you eventually it would burn itself out but you're talking about something that was just never going to burn itself out because it's always getting stuff thrown into it right okay so here's my question is there a guy with like a pitchfork and horns attending that because that's what we all learned about hell like there's this guy that attends it and that he's you know I mean I'm a Carolina fan so I believe that the devil's real so I just

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
We are anti-devil.

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
We are anti-devil.
[00:26:36] But I kind of don't know that that's what you're talking about.

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
No.

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
I mean, to be clear, Satan's real.
[00:26:42] But I don't know that it's associated with Gehenna.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
That's a different sermon, by the way.

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Okay, that's a different sermon.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
Sorry.
[00:26:47] You told me to focus on hell.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Okay, I'm sorry.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
No, no, no.

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
You had your chance.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
Okay, so there's no detailed description of hell in the Bible.
[00:27:01] There's no, like you would expect with as much as tradition we have and imagery and much as we talked about it and as much of a fear as it's been for so many Christians and so many people throughout history, there will be like this detailed chapters long description of hell.
[00:27:15] Remember, that word only shows up 13 times in the New Testament and there's no detailed description.
[00:27:20] It's fire and a fire that is never quenched is what we get in here.
[00:27:28] Much of what we think about
[00:27:29] When we think about hell, it does have some connection to Scripture.
[00:27:33] But most of what people think about when they think of hell, including the guy with the pitchfork and the horns, and a lot of the imagery we have about that owes more to Dante's Inferno or the writings of Milton.
[00:27:48] So they come more from works of literature.
[00:27:52] Or I-95 going through South Carolina.
[00:27:56] That's also a...

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Dante wrote about that for sure.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
Go ahead.
[00:28:00] The tenth circle of hell, I guess.
[00:28:02] There's a helpful quote from a theologian named N.T.
[00:28:05] Wright.
[00:28:06] He says that once Christian readers had been sufficiently distanced from the original meaning of the words, meaning once enough time had passed for that impact of a word like Gehenna no longer
[00:28:18] would have meant much to folks.
[00:28:22] Wright continues, alternative images would have come to mind, generated not by Jesus or the New Testament, but by the stock of images, some of them extremely lurid, supplied by ancient and medieval folklore and imagination.
[00:28:35] And we've inherited some of that imagery all the way down to our own time that we kind of connect and weave together with what Scripture does say about hell.

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Okay, so we're back to fear again, right?
[00:28:48] Which is where this all started, that fear is not a great motivator.
[00:28:52] And it seems like historically you're saying that's true.
[00:28:55] It doesn't seem like a good one necessarily to me, and yet that's part of this, right?

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
Right, that is part of what's happening here.
[00:29:01] If you remember, I've said this a number of times, if some of you may have heard me say that the number one command in all of Scripture, number one command from God to God's people in all of Scripture is do not fear.
[00:29:14] Do not be afraid.
[00:29:15] More than any other command, do not fear.
[00:29:19] And I'll say this fear of condemnation and fear of hell has been used in some ways that are not helpful or loving.
[00:29:28] It's been used by Christian leaders, pastors,
[00:29:32] by churches really as a means of control through fear.
[00:29:38] We can force people to live or believe or act a certain way or even in some instances give more money if we can put the fear of hell into them.
[00:29:49] Here's the thing about fear, it's a terrific short-term motivator.
[00:29:54] I don't much like to move very quickly, but if you put a spider on this table here, I'm moving really quickly.
[00:30:02] Fear is a great short-term motivator.
[00:30:05] It's lousy long-term motivator.
[00:30:09] Fear over the long term is not healthy for folks and it's not a good way for us to experience the joy and peace of God and the abundant life that Jesus talks about.
[00:30:21] So, using hell in a way that kind of provokes us to fear, I don't think is fitting for the long term, so to speak.
[00:30:32] It's not the most helpful motivation.

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Okay, so then, if hell is real in concept, if not in physical place, right?
[00:30:41] If the concept of hell is real, then the question that everybody was asking, all y'all, this was your question,
[00:30:48] Is it populated?
[00:30:49] How long is it populated for and who's in it?

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
It's going to frustrate some of you because I don't know.
[00:30:57] But neither do you.
[00:30:58] That's good news.
[00:30:59] Which is why you asked.

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Well, people wanted to know.
[00:31:02] My mom used to say it all the time.
[00:31:03] Someone was going to you know where.
[00:31:06] Sure as you know well.

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
Would it be uncharitable of me to say too bad?
[00:31:13] I'll be nicer than that.
[00:31:15] So, we don't know, because as soon as we begin moving toward that place where we feel like we have certain knowledge about this, we move into judging.
[00:31:24] And Jesus does not command us to judge.
[00:31:27] Jesus commands us to love.
[00:31:30] Anyway, but there have been throughout the history of our faith, there have been three common ideas or conceptions of hell.
[00:31:40] The first one is Eternal Conscious Torment.

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
That sounds terrible.

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
It sounds wonderful.
[00:31:46] Eternal Conscious Torment.
[00:31:48] The second one is called Annihilationism.
[00:31:50] That doesn't feel better.
[00:31:51] That also sounds wonderful.
[00:31:52] And then the third is Universal Salvation.
[00:31:55] So I want to just take a minute to talk about these, but just a couple things before we look at those.
[00:32:02] There is no one official view of hell in Christianity.
[00:32:07] Each of the three views I'm getting ready to mention have been held by a number of different Christian leaders, theologians, pastors, thinkers, still within the bounds of Christianity.
[00:32:18] So it's not like if you believe one and not the others, you're somehow out of bounds and no longer a Christian.
[00:32:25] Our salvation is not in any way determined or predicated on what we think or believe about hell.

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
That's good news.

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
I want to say that again.
[00:32:36] Your salvation, your standing with God, is not determined in any way, shape, or form about what you believe or understand or think about hell.
[00:32:48] I can't imagine getting to the judgment day and before the throne of God and God then looking at me saying, you got this detail wrong about hell, so you're going to hell.
[00:32:59] I can't imagine that.
[00:33:00] That's not in keeping with the God we see revealed in Jesus.
[00:33:04] but that first one that eternal conscious torment is the one that's most commonly been held by Christians throughout history and it's that that hell is a place where people are sent and in some way shape or form they exist in a eternal state of conscious agony
[00:33:25] And then Annihilationism is the idea that hell is really non-existence.
[00:33:33] That when people are sent or when they go to hell, they no longer exist.
[00:33:39] They're destroyed utterly and are disconnected from God, from the source of life.
[00:33:45] And then Universalism, Universal Salvation says that if there is a hell, it's empty.
[00:33:51] or there is no hell that everyone is saved regardless now here's the thing we should want number three right number three is what we should shouldn't we want every person to be redeemed and saved yeah uh one of the things that really bothers me is to see that there are people who really really want number one
[00:34:17] and seem to be gleeful about who they condemn to eternal hell.
[00:34:21] That to me is not taking this actually seriously.
[00:34:25] And it doesn't reflect God's love but rather a deeper-seated kind of hatred or it's actually against God's purposes.
[00:34:33] Anyway, I personally, I leaned to the second option.
[00:34:38] I don't believe that eternal conscious torment, I don't think that's actually what it is because I don't think it's consistent with the character of God revealed in Jesus.
[00:34:49] And I don't think it reflects a careful reading of Scripture.
[00:34:54] I also don't think it's, you know, we proclaim that God is just.
[00:34:58] I don't think eternal conscious torment is actually just.
[00:35:01] We get, what, a few decades here in this earthly life?
[00:35:04] And then as punishment for that few decades, it doesn't balance out with eternity.
[00:35:09] Does that make sense?
[00:35:10] I just don't think it's just.
[00:35:12] I don't believe in universalism.
[00:35:14] I would love it if it were the case.
[00:35:16] I don't believe in universalism because of Scripture as well as the nature of authentic love.
[00:35:22] Love must be freely chosen, which means it can be freely rejected.
[00:35:33] This means that somebody can knowingly or willingly reject God's love
[00:35:38] That means that's a possibility.
[00:35:39] Now, if I get to heaven and it's universal salvation, how much complaining am I going to do?
[00:35:45] None.
[00:35:46] I'm not going to be complaining about that.
[00:35:48] I read this quote from Bishop Will Willimon, and he says that John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist movement in the 1700s, that John Wesley taught universal redemption, complete atonement for all through the work of Christ on the cross, yet Wesley also knew that some tragically refused this gift.
[00:36:07] So Wesley taught that whereas there is in Christ universal atonement, meaning that Jesus died for all people, there's more than enough grace to go around for all people, right?
[00:36:19] There may not be universal salvation because there are some people who tragically reject that gift.
[00:36:27] So when it comes to who, that's not our place.
[00:36:32] It is ours to receive and then share that abundant love and grace that we receive from God.

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Okay, so that John Wesley thing you just said, that everybody is, that there's universal redemption, Jesus died to save all, that's pretty consistent with the Scripture, and that...
[00:36:51] That not everybody chooses that.
[00:36:52] That's utterly free will, right?
[00:36:54] So this is one of the reasons I'm a United Methodist, right?
[00:36:56] Is that I deeply believe in free will.
[00:36:59] That God gives us the choice whether or not we're going to love God back.
[00:37:03] And that makes me think all that.
[00:37:06] When you said that to me earlier this week, I immediately thought about John 15, which is where Jesus says, I'm the vine, you're the branches.
[00:37:11] Apart from me, you can do nothing, right?
[00:37:14] So I actually do believe that how we live matters, right?
[00:37:16] So if it doesn't matter, if how I live doesn't matter as it relates necessarily to whether or not I'm going to hell, I mean, it's not a matter of salvation, meaning we're not saved by our faith but by Jesus' faithfulness, right?
[00:37:29] So what does our faith do and why should we have it, right?
[00:37:32] It seems to me that it has to be more about, it has to be about more than just avoiding hell.
[00:37:37] Like I should want to do and follow Jesus not just because I'm
[00:37:41] That feels like appeasing.
[00:37:42] It feels like saying that I'm trying to appease God by my actions.
[00:37:47] And then it just has to be different than that.
[00:37:49] It seems to me it has to be more about avoiding hell and punching my ticket to heaven.
[00:37:53] It seems to me it has to be more about our salvation journey, not just what saves us when we die, but what does it mean to live in salvation now.
[00:38:03] So that makes me think about John 15.

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
I love that you picked John 15 text, I am the vine text.
[00:38:10] That's another I am statement.
[00:38:11] We talked about that last week, that Jesus has these statements in John's gospel where he says, I am.
[00:38:16] I am the good shepherd.
[00:38:17] I am the way, the truth, and the life.
[00:38:19] Connects us back to the name that God gave to Moses back in Exodus.
[00:38:22] So Jesus is basically putting himself in the same level of saying, I am God.
[00:38:28] So we're going to read this passage from John 15.
[00:38:34] Jesus says, I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower.
[00:38:38] He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit.
[00:38:41] Every branch that bears fruit He prunes to make it bear more fruit.
[00:38:45] You have already been cleansed by the word that I have spoken to you.
[00:38:48] Abide in me as I abide in you.
[00:38:50] Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me.
[00:38:57] I am the vine, you are the branches.
[00:38:59] Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing.
[00:39:06] Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers.
[00:39:10] Such branches are gathered and thrown into the fire and burned.
[00:39:13] If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
[00:39:19] My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples.
[00:39:24] As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you.
[00:39:26] Abide in my love.
[00:39:29] If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
[00:39:36] I have said these things to you so that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be complete.
[00:39:42] This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
[00:39:52] What about that passage in a practical way as disciples helps us to think about what we're talking about here in the language of being thrown out?

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Right.
[00:40:04] He's literally talking about a vine, right?
[00:40:06] So let's think about what a vine is like, right?
[00:40:08] Let's think about a vine with its roots and then it comes up and it's got all the branches.
[00:40:13] We believe that God is the source of our life, right?
[00:40:15] That's straight out of Genesis.
[00:40:17] God made us.
[00:40:19] God made us in His image.
[00:40:20] He breathed into us the breath of life.
[00:40:22] We live because God put breath in our lungs, right?
[00:40:27] If we believe that God is the source of all life, and like a vine described in Jesus, we're the branches of that vine, then we have to live in a way that is remaining attached to the vine.
[00:40:37] Because the vine is where the source of life comes from.
[00:40:39] So, like, this is what it made me think of.
[00:40:41] And I'm going to need you to remember that I went to the School of Science and Math, and I remember about this much science.
[00:40:46] Okay?
[00:40:46] Because I was then a history major.
[00:40:48] Okay.
[00:40:48] But here's what I remember.
[00:40:49] Those of you who also remember, dust off the misty recesses of Biology 101.
[00:40:54] Okay?
[00:40:55] All right, we're going to talk about plant biology for a second.
[00:40:58] A vine is life-giving, right?
[00:41:00] And all the nutrients that flow through any kind of growing thing flow through that connection.
[00:41:07] And plants, like we, have vascular tissue, right?
[00:41:11] And there, you can put this, there's a, I have an image for the screen for that, but there's a
[00:41:15] It's called the xylem and the phloem.
[00:41:17] That's the veins of a living thing is the xylem and the phloem.
[00:41:22] And I learned that.
[00:41:23] I learned xylem up, phloem down.
[00:41:25] I don't know why I remember that, but that's how I remember about that.

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
Is there a picture on the...

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
There may be a picture.
[00:41:29] There's not one.
[00:41:30] That's okay.
[00:41:31] Okay, so the xylem carries all the nutrients and all the water and all that up from the roots.
[00:41:36] Okay, so all that stuff that you're gathering from the soil, that goes up through the xylem.
[00:41:42] And then the phloem is the, that stuff goes up and down the phloem.
[00:41:46] So the xylem is one way, it goes up.
[00:41:48] Philemon goes up and down, where it's sharing the nutrients.
[00:41:51] So the nutrients go up the vine, into the branches.
[00:41:55] Branches then create leaves.
[00:41:57] Leaves then, through that process that we know as photosynthesis, create sugar, which is needed for energy, so that the plant can then bear fruit.
[00:42:07] That's basic biology, y'all.

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
I'm just thinking, hey, Pastor, what about hell?
[00:42:10] Well, there's the xylem and the philemon.

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
But he talks about a vine.
[00:42:17] It's just good basic things.
[00:42:18] Okay, so this is how a vine works, right?
[00:42:21] And here's the problem.
[00:42:22] If you cut off circulation to something, what happens to it?
[00:42:27] It dies.
[00:42:28] It dies.
[00:42:28] So like, it's like this.
[00:42:29] You remember that kid in the balcony one day at First Methodist?

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
Right before worship, he had one of those plastic zip ties, and he put it around his wrist and went, poof!
[00:42:40] What are you doing?
[00:42:42] He's a sixth grade boy, so he didn't know what he was doing.

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Sixth grade boys are stupid.

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
They're wonderful.

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Okay, now, he had to go get that off real fast, right?
[00:42:52] Why?
[00:42:54] Because it cut off circulation, right?
[00:42:57] And if we cut off circulation, what's going to happen?
[00:43:01] Eventually, the tissue's going to die.
[00:43:03] That's how that works, right?
[00:43:05] Okay, so the same is true of a plant.
[00:43:07] If you were to tie something tight around the branch of something, eventually you're going to cut off all the life flow coming out of it, right?
[00:43:15] And it's not going to continue to grow.
[00:43:16] Now, we all know pruning is a real thing, but the point of pruning is never to destroy.
[00:43:21] The point of pruning is to trim a little so that something can continue to grow.
[00:43:26] That's utterly different than Wes taking the hedge trimmer to the bushes in the front yard that I need him to take the hedge trimmer to.
[00:43:31] It's basically going to kill him.
[00:43:33] Okay, so that's two different things, right?
[00:43:35] Alright, so, stick with me.
[00:43:38] So there's this vine, right, and all these branches.
[00:43:40] And if we're gonna stay connected to the vine for life, we have to stay connected into that vine for life to flow through us, right?
[00:43:49] And if we cut ourself off from the vine,
[00:43:52] If we do that, if we cut ourselves off from the vine, if we sever those structures that give nutrients and water that help the fruit to grow, then we cannot live.
[00:44:04] If we sever the xylem and the phloem, part of the plant's going to die.
[00:44:08] And in this little analogy, it is quite literally true that apart from God, apart from the vine, because God is the vine, we're the branches, apart from the vine, we can't do anything.
[00:44:19] Because everything we need to do all the things we're going to do require first the thing that comes from God.
[00:44:26] And the truth is we can choose, we're back to free will again, we can choose to cut ourselves off from the source of our life.
[00:44:35] We can make that choice.
[00:44:37] And when we do, we are going to die.
[00:44:42] We're going to die.
[00:44:43] That's not condemnation, friends, that's consequence.

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
I like that so that's not condemnation that's consequence so it's not so much what God you know what God does to us and I like what you're saying about the vine and branches and it connects us back to John the Baptist and something he says John says what does not bear fruit is cut off and thrown into the fire thrown into the fire where things just cease to be right so like if you if we took the brush right so let's just say we trimmed all the bushes in our yard right and we took all that we wanted to burn it it wouldn't burn forever

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Would it?
[00:45:21] Ultimately it would be consumed.
[00:45:22] Now you could keep feeding it and then it would burn forever, right?
[00:45:26] But it would just stop eventually.
[00:45:31] What is no longer connected to the vine, Jesus says in both the Mark text and in this text, is thrown out.
[00:45:38] And it's not like those branches writhe on the ground forever in some sort of state of eternal conscious torment.
[00:45:44] They're just lifeless.
[00:45:46] They're just inert.
[00:45:48] And this is where a lot of questions, we get a lot of questions about God choosing to punish us, right?
[00:45:53] And I don't know that I think punishment is God's choice so much as the consequence of ours, right?
[00:45:59] So like when my kids do wrong, it's not that I'm choosing to punish them, it's that they made a choice that's leading to the thing that I said is the consequence of that behavior, right?
[00:46:11] And so, like, you know, Daniel, if you leave dirty plates in your room, or cups, the 17 million cups that we took out of his room this morning, right, eventually there are going to be bugs, right?
[00:46:23] That's consequence, not, you know what I'm saying?
[00:46:26] Okay.
[00:46:27] He didn't really do that.
[00:46:27] I don't think they're ants.
[00:46:28] I'm just saying.
[00:46:29] He did leave a bunch of cups.

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
Now I've got to look.

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
That's okay.
[00:46:31] It's a whole other thing.
[00:46:32] Okay.
[00:46:32] In other words, if we choose, if we choose to cut ourselves off from the source of life, God's going to allow that.
[00:46:42] I don't think that God wants it.
[00:46:44] I think God allows it.
[00:46:46] And when we're cut off from the source of life, we cease to live.
[00:46:49] And that punishment is chosen by us.
[00:46:51] And here's the thing about that.
[00:46:52] I don't think that's just in some future date.
[00:46:55] I think that's also about how we live in this life right now, which is what you were saying toward the end of what you were talking about hell.
[00:47:01] So it's like this.
[00:47:02] Heaven is a place on earth, but so is hell, which is a whole other song by Iron Maiden.
[00:47:05] That's a different song.
[00:47:06] Right?
[00:47:07] That's not Belinda Carlisle.
[00:47:08] That's right.
[00:47:09] Hell is a place on earth, too, because hell...
[00:47:12] And its most basic sense is separation from God.
[00:47:16] Hell is separation from God.
[00:47:19] And the thing that does the separating of us from God is what we call sin.
[00:47:25] Anything that cuts off our connection to God is sin.
[00:47:29] So, jealousy.
[00:47:31] I'm so focused on what somebody else has that I can't see what God has given me and it's cut me off from the source of my life.
[00:47:38] Do you see?
[00:47:40] So, and that's just one example.
[00:47:42] That's just one sin.
[00:47:43] We could pick millions of them, right?
[00:47:44] There are hundreds of them.
[00:47:45] All right.
[00:47:46] So that happens in our earthly life.
[00:47:48] And that separation is ever so much more about what happens right now than just about the life to come.
[00:47:54] If we choose in this life to live under the dominion of sin rather than under the dominion of God, there's going to be pain associated with that in the end.
[00:48:05] We will cease to exist.
[00:48:06] But there's pain associated with it in the hearing now, right?
[00:48:10] Sin hurts, doesn't it?
[00:48:14] It feels good in the moment, but ultimately it hurts.
[00:48:19] So, God wants to be in redeemed relationship with us, and that is not just about our death.
[00:48:28] That is about the living of our days now.

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
So, what does it look like for us as disciples in our day-to-day lives to stay connected to the vine?

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Well, I don't think it could be based in fear.

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
Right.

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
And a lot of us heard about fire insurance, you know, we're good, that was our fire insurance.
[00:48:47] Some of y'all don't know what I'm talking about, but those of you who were raised in Baptist churches, sure enough, know about fire insurance.
[00:48:54] Oh, you and Keena got the fire insurance?
[00:48:56] Okay.
[00:49:00] It's not like staying connected to the vine.
[00:49:03] It's because the vine is good.
[00:49:05] Friends, everything that is good in our life, does it not come from our connection to the vine?
[00:49:14] Is it every moment that you have known forgiveness, didn't that come from God?
[00:49:19] Every moment that you had what you needed to make a right choice, didn't that come from God?
[00:49:24] The scripture, divine passage, right?
[00:49:26] It says that part of how we remain divine is that we obey his commandments.
[00:49:31] And we go, okay, which ones?
[00:49:34] I'm gonna write down which ones I gotta check off, right?
[00:49:37] And then he just straight up, the Bible, Jesus, right there, just straight up tells us which one he's talking about.
[00:49:42] And he says, and this is my commandment that I want you to live into, love one another.
[00:49:47] Every single thing that is good that you have ever known, did it not come from the love of God?
[00:49:53] Every moment of grace and forgiveness and hope and presence and stability and direction and steadiness, that comes from God.
[00:50:02] And it's the only way to truly live and to produce fruit and to thrive.
[00:50:08] To go back to last week, Jesus in Gethsemane was able to be faithful and obedient to God and choose the way of the cross because he knew where his life came from.
[00:50:21] And that it didn't come from Rome.
[00:50:23] It came from God.
[00:50:26] He knew where the source of everything was coming.
[00:50:29] He knew that it was God.
[00:50:30] And so, friends, for us, our obedience, our faithfulness come from that very same place.
[00:50:36] From our understanding that life is coming to us through that vine.
[00:50:41] These things don't save us, but they connect us to God.
[00:50:44] And they give us strength for the living of our days.
[00:50:46] And it's interesting to note also that Romans talks about being grafted into the vine.
[00:50:51] So you can also graft someone.
[00:50:53] It's not like if something gets cut off, it has to be cut off forever.
[00:50:57] You can graft the vine back together.
[00:50:59] That's a whole other kind of biology and I'm not going to get into it.
[00:51:01] But that's part of the whole story too.
[00:51:04] So I personally, this is Tony Ruth.
[00:51:08] Again, we're showing a lot of grace and humility here because we're all talking about what we believe.
[00:51:14] I don't know and I'm not prepared to say that people that don't profess the name of Jesus are going to hell.
[00:51:21] Because I don't think that's my call.
[00:51:24] I don't think it's my decision to make.
[00:51:26] I don't think that I or you or anybody else is saved by our faith or our good works, but by the grace of God and the faithfulness of Jesus on the cross.
[00:51:34] However, I will say that knowing Jesus and living like He teaches us to live is very, very, very important.
[00:51:45] God is very important for the living of our days because every good fruit, every good work flows out of that relationship with Jesus and our connection to the vine.
[00:51:56] We are called to remain connected into that vine.
[00:51:59] Not out of fear, but because we know it's life-giving.
[00:52:03] So we stay connected, and we seek nourishment, and we seek that in things like Bible study, and we seek it in worship, and in service, and in prayer, and in covenant relationships, right?
[00:52:13] Because the truth is, sin is real, and sometimes you need to be pruned.
[00:52:16] And sometimes you need somebody to look at you and go, we're going to have to do some pruning.
[00:52:21] But again, the point of pruning is not to send you to hell.
[00:52:24] It's to make you healthier so that you can bear more fruit.
[00:52:28] It's to get rid of that which is diseased and that which is not helping you live.
[00:52:34] And we pray that we might do that, that we might stay connected into the vine, not just for some far off point in the future, but so that we might know salvation now.
[00:52:45] So like, it makes me think of aorist tense, and so you're gonna need to explain what that means to them.
[00:52:49] So those of you who are English people,
[00:52:52] Dust off the misty recesses.

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
That aorist tense is something that happened in the past, so it's past tense, but it's continuing into the future.
[00:53:02] So it's action that started in the past and continues into the future.

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Right, so when the Bible talks about things, a lot of times, the Bible uses aorist tense a lot.
[00:53:12] It talks about things that start in the past and continue on to the future, and usually that's talking about us.
[00:53:17] Like we have been saved, we are continuing to be saved.
[00:53:20] We are being saved.
[00:53:20] We are always being saved.
[00:53:22] We are always being healed.
[00:53:24] We are always being made whole.
[00:53:26] So it's something that started in the past continues into the future because God's not just interested in our future.
[00:53:31] God's interested in our present and our past too, which makes me think of the whole I am thing, right?
[00:53:36] That God says, I am what I was.
[00:53:38] I am what I am.
[00:53:39] I am what I will be, right?
[00:53:41] That God's name is that God exists past, present, future.
[00:53:45] And so God's not just interested in our future.
[00:53:49] God's interested in our present.
[00:53:51] And he does that, he saves us, not so we can lord it over other people or stand in judgment of other people or condemn other people, but ultimately so that we, knowing where our life has come from, can show other people how to get attached to the living water, how to get tapped back into, grafted into the vine.
[00:54:10] or to maybe untie the thing that they've tied around themselves so that they can be free, so that they can live and grow and thrive, right?
[00:54:18] So when we think about who's going to be saved, if we're only thinking about who's going to be condemned, we're missing the point.
[00:54:27] Again, John 3, For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but shall have eternal life.
[00:54:35] God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world.
[00:54:40] But that the whole world might be saved through him.
[00:54:44] So God wants to save us, and we have some part to play in that.
[00:54:50] And we have the opportunity, by the way that we witness, to invite other people into that life-giving thing that we have found.
[00:54:57] Right?
[00:54:58] Who was it?
[00:54:58] Was it?
[00:54:59] Is it Corrie Ten Boom?
[00:55:00] That a Christian is just one beggar saying to another beggar, let me show you where I found bread.
[00:55:07] Yeah.

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER UNKNOWN]:
So.

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
That's what I've got to say about salvation.
[00:55:11] You got anything you want to add?

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
I did a pretty good job.

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Okay, so we're not going to talk about the devil, so we can address that another time.
[00:55:21] Nobody asked about the devil.
[00:55:23] Okay, well I'll let you address it another time.

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_00]:
Oh, thank you.
[00:55:25] Another grenade.

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Any questions you have, I'm going to direct you to Wesley.
[00:55:31] Because he just loves to answer all your questions.
[00:55:34] Okay.
[00:55:35] Okay, so here's what I want us to do in light of this.
[00:55:40] I want us to pray for somebody.
[00:55:42] You got somebody you need to pray for.
[00:55:43] Maybe it's you.
[00:55:47] Maybe it's somebody you love.
[00:55:49] Maybe it's somebody you don't even know yet, but you're thinking about them, okay?
[00:55:53] So I want you to put your hands in front of you like this.
[00:55:55] Close your eyes.
[00:55:56] Put your hands in front of you, palms up, and I want you to picture...
[00:56:00] Somebody in your hand that you're worried about that would lead you to ask this question.
[00:56:05] Who's in hell?
[00:56:06] Is it populated?
[00:56:07] Is it a paternal conscious torment?
[00:56:09] Maybe it's you you're holding.
[00:56:11] Maybe it's someone you love.
[00:56:12] Maybe it's a whole group of people.
[00:56:13] I don't know.
[00:56:13] Whatever is on your spirit.
[00:56:16] And I don't just want you to hold your hands close to your body.
[00:56:18] I want you to lift them just a little bit away from you.
[00:56:20] And I want you to think about holding that person into the light of God's love for them.
[00:56:25] Because here's what we know is true.
[00:56:27] How much God loves other people is way more than how you and I love them.
[00:56:32] Alright, so I want you to just hold that person in your hand into the light of God and let's pray together.
[00:56:40] God, you are life.
[00:56:44] And you are love.
[00:56:46] You are the one that created us.
[00:56:48] You are the one that breathed into us and that gave us life.
[00:56:52] You are the source of all life.
[00:56:55] You are the one that shows us the way that we are called to live.
[00:56:59] You're the one that offers us grace and second chances and is always at work in us.
[00:57:04] You're the one that calls us to bear fruit, fruit that will last.
[00:57:09] And you, Lord, are everything.
[00:57:11] We thank you so very much for every good thing we have ever had, we have ever known, because it's because of you, because you are so good.
[00:57:20] And we hold, Lord, this person, this group of people into the light of that love right now, praying, God, that they might come to know what we have found in you, or that we might know what we hear other people tell us about you, if we've never known it ourselves.
[00:57:37] that we would know that life-giving that others would know that life-giving goodness that comes from the vine that hope and that joy that peace that healing that newness that that we might know that grace that prunes so that we may bear fruit that addresses all the places where we are diseased and sick and all the sins and the things that are keeping us disconnected from you
[00:58:07] We ask God that your life would so flow through us that we would bear fruit that this person, these people that we're holding in our hands, that we worry about, that we might bring some nourishment to them.
[00:58:21] that we might be able to tell them where that living water that we have come to know really does come from that we might bear witness in some way God so that the world and those around us and more specifically this person that we love might know the goodness of God we pray God for this world that you love that you came to save we ask your forgiveness for all the ways God that we have
[00:58:50] Rejected your love, rejected that life flowing through us.
[00:58:54] We pray, God, that you would remove the constrictions and the strictures that we have placed there, that the world has placed there, and that you, God, would bring that life to us.
[00:59:05] We need it desperately.
[00:59:06] And this person that we are holding before you needs it.
[00:59:10] So we pray that you would do what only you can do, that you would bring about salvation.
[00:59:16] We pray, God, that we would know not just heaven on the other side, but a life of the kingdom of God, the kingdom of heaven in the here and now.
[00:59:27] That we might live in it, that we might lift it up.
[00:59:31] And Lord, we pray that that promise that you made is true, that when we but lift you up, you will draw all people to yourself.
[00:59:39] So we pray for salvation, Lord, of us and of others.
[00:59:43] We pray it not just for the life that is to come, but we pray it for right now.
[00:59:48] Thank you God.
[00:59:50] Thank you God.
[00:59:51] Thank you God for Jesus and for every good thing that we have ever known that has given us life.
[01:00:04] We ask it in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ who taught us to pray together.
[01:00:09] Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
[01:00:14] Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
[01:00:19] Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
[01:00:28] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
[01:00:33] For Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever.
[01:00:37] Amen.
[01:00:39] Okay, so not to push the whole analogy to incredulity, but God gives us everything, right?
[01:00:46] And so we give back to God.
[01:00:48] There's this, the xylem's going up, the phloem's coming back down.
[01:00:51] So from us, there's all this stuff that helps bring nutrient to the other branches in the vine, and part of that is our offering.
[01:01:00] It's the offering of ourselves, it's the offering of our time and our talent and our gift and our service, but all of it is response to God's life-giving flow coming through us.
[01:01:08] So in gratitude and thanksgiving and worship for the vine, we give our offerings back to God.
[01:01:13] You can scan to give, you can mail in a check, you can drop your offering in the offering plate.
[01:01:18] However you give, I hope that what you understand is that that's part of you being the phloem.
[01:01:24] It's part of you giving thanks for the life that God has given you and contributing back some of the growth that God has given you to the nourishment of the whole vine.
[01:01:33] And we pray that God would bless it.

[01:01:46] [SPEAKER UNKNOWN]:
So we gather round the river Where all the angels meet and trod
[01:02:39] The beautiful, the beautiful river, Gathered with the saints at the river, That holds by the throne

[01:03:05] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_03]:
We reach the shining river, Lay we every burden down, Grace our spirit to deliver, And provide our hope and ground.
[01:03:32] Let us gather at the river, the beautiful, the beautiful river.

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER UNKNOWN]:
Gather with the saints at the river that flows by the throne of God.

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_03]:
The deep river, my home is over Jordan.

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER UNKNOWN]:
The deep river, I want to cross over into Canberra.
[01:04:38] Sin and heavy hearts will quiver with the power of the Almighty.
[01:05:13] Let us remember the beautiful
[01:05:44] Thanks for watching!
[01:06:24] of Christ Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

[01:06:45] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_01]:
A couple opportunities before us today.
[01:06:48] Fuel Your Family kickoff is tonight.
[01:06:50] We're inviting you to come and bring a potluck and to join in to learn about all the activities that we will have on Sunday nights.
[01:06:58] The official beginning of all the classes and all the kids' choirs will happen two weeks from today.
[01:07:04] But today is a kickoff.
[01:07:05] We would love for you to come if you already know you're going to participate.
[01:07:08] During the fall, you should scan the QR code and sign up.
[01:07:11] There are activities from everything from the youngest of youngest all the way, all the ages.
[01:07:17] So please come and join with us.
[01:07:19] We're going to have a great time this fall.
[01:07:21] Reminder about the golf tournament, sign up for that.
[01:07:25] Help with the United Methodist Men and their fundraising for missions and so I invite you to I think we had a screen for that but if not you can find the information out in the lobby or you can come see any pastor or find that information online in our registration places.
[01:07:44] and the last thing is that next Sunday service is a one service it is at 10 o'clock that's not at your normal time so you need to come earlier or you will miss most of it so please come at 10 o'clock everybody come at 10 o'clock next week on the 31st oh i'm sorry yes we're going to say i got distracted we're going to say when we all get to heaven page 701 in your hymnal

[01:08:16] [SPEAKER UNKNOWN]:
The Gospel of John

[01:08:36] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_03]:
In the glorious love of Jesus, in his mercy and his grace, in the mansions bright and clear,
[01:09:15] Of the pure and heavenly, As will the Lord and still the sky.
[01:09:46] Jesus, we'll sing and shout the word of faith.

[01:10:10] [SPEAKER UNKNOWN]:
Let us then be true and faithful, Trusting, serving every day.
[01:10:12] Just look, let's all live in glory, With the doors of our faith,
[01:10:20] of Christ Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
[01:10:48] On where to death cries before us, soon is born to you behold.
[01:11:11] Soon the pearly gates will open, which shelter the saints of old.

[01:11:20] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_03]:
Addison's getting tall I gotta stand up like one more step

[01:11:42] [SPEAKER SPEAKER_02]:
Friends, I hope that you will look for ways that you can be engaging in your commitment to be connected into the vine.
[01:11:50] That you'll be letting the goodness of God flow through you and nourish you so that you can bear fruit that nourishes other people.
[01:11:57] And I also hope that you won't forget to be here next week at what time?
[01:12:02] All right.
[01:12:02] Friends, may the Lord bless you and keep you.
[01:12:04] The Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you.
[01:12:08] The Lord lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace.
[01:12:11] In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
[01:12:13] Amen.

[01:12:46] [SPEAKER UNKNOWN]:
In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
[01:13:13] Amen.
[01:13:29] In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
[01:13:55] Amen.